Diary of an Apartment Investor

Why Waiting for Clarity Costs Investors Millions with Rod Khleif

• Brian Briscoe • Episode 578

Share episode

Most investors believe patience protects them—but in uncertain markets, hesitation often becomes the most expensive decision they make.

Periods like this don’t reward confidence or optimism. They reward preparation, discipline, and the ability to act while others are frozen by fear. That tension sits at the center of this conversation.

If you’re serious about navigating cycles like this with more clarity and support, the real work happens inside the Tribe of Titans multifamily investing community—where operators go deeper on capital strategy, deal decisions, and asset management in real time.
👉 Learn more at thetribeoftitans.com

What You’ll Learn

  • Why fear-driven markets quietly punish investors who wait for “certainty”
  • How debt structure—not assets—becomes the real risk in downturns
  • The hidden operational cost of spreading across too many markets
  • Why geographic focus creates resilience when conditions tighten
  • How experienced operators position themselves for opportunity before it’s obvious

This conversation cuts through headlines and hype to focus on what actually matters when markets turn—decision-making, discipline, and positioning.

About the Guest

Rod Khleif is a real estate investor, business owner, and educator with experience spanning multiple market cycles. He has owned more than 2,000 properties and brings firsthand perspective from both large-scale success and major setbacks, including navigating the 2008 crash. Rod focuses on the intersection of real estate, mindset, and performance, drawing on decades of operating experience to help investors think and act at a higher level.

Learn more about him: https://rodkhleif.com/

https://rodslinks.com/

About the Host

Brian Briscoe is an apartment investor and operator, founder of Streamline Capital, and the Tribe of Titans multifamily investing community. His investing focus is the Greater Salt Lake City metro, where he emphasizes disciplined acquisitions, operational control, and long-term capital strategy.

Brian Briscoe:

Welcome to the Diary of an Apartment Investor podcast with business professionals like you learn to achieve time-free and financial independence-approved apartment investors. I'm Brian Briscoe, a retired Marine Corps officer, turned full-time apartment investor, and the founder of the Tribe and Titans multifamily investor community. Each week you'll hear inspiring stories and actionable strategies so you can raise capital, replace your income, and build a legacy for multifamily real estate. It's time to take control of your future. Now let's get started. Welcome to the Diary of an Apartment Investor podcast. I'm your host, Brian Briscoe. Really excited for today's show. And we've got the one and only Rod Cleef with us. So, Rod, how's it going today?

Rod Khleif:

Good, brother. Good to see you again. It's been a long time too.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah. Yeah. I was getting ready for this call. I was just kind of reflecting. I went to one of your events. It was the last time I got onto a plane before COVID shut everything down. It was Los Angeles. Yeah.

Rod Khleif:

It was LA. Yeah. Wow. That was a long time ago. When COVID hit, I had 800 people scheduled for Orlando. And I'm like, holy crap, what are we going to do? You know, and I immediately shot a video in my backyard with my phone and I built a video studio here at my compound. And now we're pretty much all virtual. It's just easier. It's it's less expensive. And in fact, it's interesting. I was supposed to be in LA the end of January and doing another live event. And we we track our ticket sales. I was supposed to be at about 200 and we were at 18. And I just said, nope, we're done. I'm not I'm not gonna spend 100 grand to not have people. Yeah, I think it's a sign of the times. There's a lot of fear out there. And I think that'd be a great thing to talk about today.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah, there is a lot of fear. But uh, you know, you you throw great events and before we launch in, I know you have a boot camp coming up in January. Virtual.

Rod Khleif:

Yeah, virtual boot camp. Yep. I teach people how to buy apartment complexes and other commercial real estate. And like I was telling you, Brian, uh, we were talking about, you know, some of the other thought leaders in the space. And, you know, we did an analysis, and my students, my warriors, my coaching students, own more than all the other people doing what I do combined. Uh you know, my students are close to 300,000 units and uh under my tutelage, which just blows my mind candidly. But but we're also doing other asset classes. I mean, senior housing, student housing, self-storage, mobile home parks, you name it. There's just incredible opportunity right now, brother. I mean, you know, there's so many deals in trouble, so many operators that are over their skis with expenses going up, with you know, adjustable rate debt and everything else impacting it. You know, it's a it's a fantastic time if you know if you're thinking of a side hustle to get into this business. And and I and my coat, my boot camp's 47 freaking dollars, and I don't sell anything there. So no excuses, okay? If you're interested, go to rodslinks.com or text the word links to 72345. Uh again, Rodslinks.com or text links to 72345. And if the price is more than 47, just DM me on my social medias. There's a bunch of free resources there. Just DM me and I'll get you that price. And it comes with about $3,000 worth of bonuses. So again, no excuses. If you're interested in real estate, it's kind of a no-brainer. Thanks for letting me plug it, bud.

Brian Briscoe:

Anyway, for those listening, what he just said is all going to be in the show notes. So uh you don't have to push the back button a little bit to write those down. But in the show notes, we'll have all that information. So yeah, Rob, let's talk about fear in the marketplace. You know, what's your take on you know where we're at right now, where we're going? And I know last time you were on the podcast, I know you talked a little bit about your history, losing money in the great financial crisis. Oh, sure. Any parallels there?

Rod Khleif:

So those that don't know my story, I lost $50 million in the 08-09 crash. And a lot of what I'm known for talking about is the mindset it took to have $50 million to lose in the first place, and probably more importantly, was the mindset to recover from that to the success that I'm blessed to enjoy today. You know, it was a completely different environment back then. Okay. I mean, back then, you know, it was the commercial mortgage-backed securities that caused that crash. If you could fog a mirror, you could buy a house. Or people working at Wendy's, they had buying $80,000 houses, you know, with stated income loans and, you know, this horrible debt, you know, really bad debt that they placed because they were making so much money. And uh, you know, it's interesting. After I lost that $50 million, I actually started a litigation support company out of the ashes of that to help people that were losing their homes. I built law firms in five states, and we saved thousands of houses. What we would do is we'd stop the foreclosure with litigation. And then I had a team of 60 people here in my Sarasota office doing loan modifications. And yeah, so that's kind of just that reminded me of that. And by the way, the guy that bought it from me, I met with him today, and there were a lot of foreclosures again. He said they're as busy as we were in 2009 and 10, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. So a lot of fear and there's a lot of struggle in the marketplace. I've got beautiful assets, and uh, some of them are struggling even because people are having trouble paying the rent. Our delinquencies are up, vacancies up, and you know, thank God I've got really good debt on my assets. But, you know, the ones that I I purchased after my last partner, my last partner got me in a couple of bridge loans that are a problem. But and that's what's causing a lot of these problems for operators is they got debt at 3%, and now it's at eight or nine. You know, I remember looking at an asset where the reserve payments for the lender were $8,000 a month. They went to $80,000 a month. Oh, geez. I mean, you can't make that work. But the deals are out there, it's extraordinary because we've got an asset in San Antonio. In fact, we just did the asset management call on it, and it's 200 units on a lake. It's beautiful. The complex right next door sold for 43 million. Bank owns it, it's down to 28 now. It doesn't even make sense to us until it gets down to 24. But that's what's out there right now, okay? And it is going to come back. You know, there's a lot of scuttle butt that the rates are going to come down next year and come and maybe even come back to, you know, close to where we were before. Who knows? I mean, Powell and Trump are at each other's throats, but who knows? But I'll tell you something. You know, those of you listening, if you have a job that's in front of a computer, like, you know, tech, IT, even administrative, you better be thinking about reinventing yourself. Because, you know, I don't know if you heard Elon Musk's latest interview on Joe Rogan. It's a really interesting, quasi-sobering interview. But he says most of those jobs are going to be gone before you freaking know it. Okay. And we just met with a consultant that does AI implementation for two of my companies, and just literally today. But listen, if you are in that field, think about reinventing yourself. Don't wait till the hammer drops, okay? You know, to start that side hustle now. I think there's going to be an incredible opportunity to buy businesses. Senior housing is an incredible opportunity. There's 10,000 people a day turning 65. I'm one of them. And they own a lot of businesses, right? And so there's going to be an opportunity to buy businesses as well. But you look at some of these tech companies, there have been massive layoffs already. Amazon, Facebook, they're laying off already. You know, of course, they're on the forefront of this stuff. But it's going to continue. It's going to trickle down to other companies here. You know, Elon said within three years, most of those jobs will be gone.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah.

Rod Khleif:

So if that's you, you know, I'm sorry to scare the shit out of you, but you know, just don't. I had to reinvent myself, you know, and we were just talking about that, you know, when COVID hit. What we're going to do. I'm in my backyard shooting my video for my event. And I'm reinventing myself a little bit right now just because, you know, it's a lot of fear in the marketplace. But yeah, it's a time to reinvent yourself. And and listen, it's scary, but it's also exciting, okay?

Brian Briscoe:

Because with crisis comes opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. I got into multifamily seven years ago already. But uh I know a lot of people in COVID, you know, that was a time where a lot of people had to reinvent themselves, just like you mentioned. And, you know, a lot of people turned to commercial real estate at that point, and you know, many of them have done very well since. Mm-hmm.

Rod Khleif:

Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. There's no better asset class than real estate, period. I mean, what can you buy that someone else pays for? There's a reason 90% of the world's millionaires either made it in real estate or put their money in real estate because of the incredible tax benefits as well. But yeah, no, it's it's it's crazy times we're in right now with AI, with you know, the political scene. Don't get me started, uh the the unfortunate division in this country, but thank God it it went the way it did, in my opinion, or I'd be in Costa Rica right now.

Brian Briscoe:

You're you're talking rates, and I mean it's it's kind of interesting. Yeah, Powell and and Trump are at each other's throats, but we know who's gonna win that.

Rod Khleif:

You know, well, you know, the problem is he appointed Powell, so it's a little black eye that he's got there, but yeah, no, I mean ultimately, you know, Trump pretty much succeeds at anything he does. Uh I'll tell you something. Let me give you a little another little onerous thing though. If the Supreme Court does not reverse that decision that some appellate court had on his tariffs, if they take away his leverage ability to use tariffs to bring other countries to bear that have been screwing us for decades, we could be headed for some real pain in this country because that's the only way I can see that the national debt's gonna get handled.

Brian Briscoe:

That or production in the country. Back to the fear issue. You know, what do we have to hope for coming up? You know, when you look ahead and look for the bright spots, where are those bright spots?

Rod Khleif:

Well, there's incredible opportunity right now, Brian. I mean, you know, if you were ever gonna get into this business, it is right freaking now. We could see the greatest transfer of wealth in our lifetimes next year. This the end of this, well, we're at the end of this year, like next year, the year after, because there's just a lot of carnage. There's a lot of operators in trouble, a lot of deals being trying to be sold for the debt, or they're being taken back. You know, lenders have been kicking the can down the curb in hopes that you know things will stabilize and they're doing lots of loan modifications, lots of deferrals. The catchphrase with lenders is extend and pretend, but they're starting to foreclose now, and we're gonna see deals at auction. You know, there's like a trillion dollars of commercial debt coming due. Yeah, okay. So I'm gonna tell you if you're listening, if you've got over 250,000 in a smaller regional bank, I would reconsider that. Open up a different account name. Uh, I've got my money spread out over 80 banks. There's this company that does this uh bank that does that for you. And they don't put more than 250 grand each bank because we're gonna see bank failures, I promise you. You know, now they'll likely, well, let's hopefully get gobbled up by the big ones. But the bottom line is there's a trillion dollars of commercial debt to come into. And if if one of these operators is in that situation, they have two options to get a refinance or sell. Sales are down 90%. Refinance is damn near impossible with the rates where they are, and and because they have to meet what's called debt service coverage requirements. They're looking at the property's ability to service the debt, and that's just a real problem. In many cases, they have to put a lot of money in, which they can't do. And so, again, tons of opportunities coming for discounted properties, like that example I just gave you in the one next to ours that we're keeping an eye on. So, you know, and there'll be opportunities, like I say, to buy businesses. You know, I think uh, you know, it's an exciting time in that regard if you don't get caught up in the fear of it. And I'm in a lot of cash right now in the hopes that I can capitalize on some of this stuff. And I'm getting into senior housing as well. There's like I say, 10,000 people today, turning 65. I'm one of them, and it's called the silver tsunami. And uh, you know, so I'm buying my second assisted living facility. I'm going to South Carolina next week. Uh, I intend to buy 10 in the next 12 to 18 months, and that's the plan.

Brian Briscoe:

So in the last two years, I've purchased four properties, and I wish that the number was higher, but you there's not a lot on the market, but everything that we've purchased has been something that we looked at and basically said, here's our price, and we just wait, you know, wait for that price to come down, wait for that price to come down in six, eight. Are you geographically specific or where are you? Uh we're Salt Lake City. Okay.

Rod Khleif:

And your assets are in Salt Lake City?

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah. Okay, fantastic.

Rod Khleif:

So the most successful operators I see are the ones that are geographically specific, like you are, Brian. Because you can you can go out there, you can kick it, you can look at it, you can raise hell if things aren't right. You know, it's these, it's these assets that are out of town, unless you got boots on the ground that's really competent that struggle candidly. So yeah, yeah. I had a bad situation with an ex-partner. Oh, God, don't get me started. Cost me millions and millions of dollars. Very nefarious guy. And I had to step in and try to asset manage these assets that we had in seven states. And and I I regret doing them.

Brian Briscoe:

I I mean I learned the hard way uh that we should have stuck with one market. I'll say the same thing. I mean, I focus on a market right now because I did the same thing. I I still have assets in eight different states, just you know, after trying to manage some of those and taking taking over management on some of those, you know, I realized that, you know, we we've got to consolidate, we've got to have everything together.

Rod Khleif:

He and I got together and we bought 23 apartment complexes in seven states, and you know, and I hadn't done a lot of large apartments yet. Uh, and uh and I learned the hard way. And he he had a lot more experience than me. But what I discovered as because I had to step in in asset management, I had to step in for about a year. Uh and I saved some of them. Some of them are still in trouble. I had to step back. I just couldn't do it anymore. But uh what I discovered, like I said, was you know, that the operators that stay in one market and and I ideally uh vertically integrate as well, where they have their own property management, they have their own construction company, those are the most successful operators in our business by far.

Brian Briscoe:

That's next step for us is vertically integrating, you know, with what we have. But uh yeah. Good for you. Good for you. I saw the exact same thing, you know, looking at uh, you know, people who were you know operating at very high levels, focus. There's something about focusing on one specific thing. You know, it doesn't matter what it is, but when you focus on one specific thing, you you tend to see a lot better results. Right.

Rod Khleif:

It's the focus on one market for sure. I mean, there are some big, very reputable, very impressive operators that are in trouble. I kind of get this skinny because everybody knows everybody, but and you know, the water's going out, and we see who has no clothes on at this point, you know. And again, with crisis comes opportunity, and the biggest money is made in times like that to be a contrarian investor. This is this is when the real money is made. Yeah. And so, you know, if you can push through the fear, uh this is this is when the deals are gonna be. And so, you know, like I said, that that one property, 43 million down to 24, is where we're gonna get it if we get it. And you know, and it's closed. But even these senior housing facilities, I mean, COVID decimated them. And so there's real opportunity to buy these, they're half full or they're even completely empty. I've got one that's completely empty, we're re redoing it. But there's such a huge tidal wave of these people retiring that the opportunity is it's pretty much a slam dunk. Uh it's not a hard sell for me to raise money for these. I raise the money for the first one in about three days. So yeah, and I've got a waiting list for the second one. So yeah, but anyway, so what what markets are you are you in right now? So right now, I'm I'm still in six of those seven markets. So I'm in Texas. I've got assets in San Antonio, Dallas, Houston. We sold our one in the northeast of Atlanta, Ohio, got assets in Ohio, Indiana, sold our assets in South Carolina, got an asset in Nashville, sold our one in Florida. Okay. You know, I'd love to buy more in Texas and Florida. I really, you know, love both those states. I love Ohio, too, parts of Ohio. Yeah. We sold, we sold one of our assets in in uh Dayton, Ohio. That's a funny story. Or not funny, but it was 101 units. Uh, about three months after we bought it, got destroyed by a tornado. I mean, wiped out. Nobody died, thank God. A couple of people had to have surgery. Thank God no kids got hurt.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah.

Rod Khleif:

But they had to completely rebuild it. And we got about $600 rent bumps, which was a $10 to $12 million increase in value on that on 101 units. We made some money uh on uh I I had a fire in my Nashville last that 22 units went down. Thank God nobody died there. But yeah, we we're we've got a brand new 22 unit. We and we did well on it. The insurance, you know, took care of us, but it does impact the rates though. That's the caveat.

Brian Briscoe:

But yeah. And it affects resale too. I mean, because you have to give the loss runs to whoever's buying, and they're gonna have to see that. But uh exactly. No, exactly, exactly. No, it's insurance does. I mean, that that's kind of a lesson I've learned over and over again. You know, you've got to be well insured. When I first got into the business, you know, I remember somebody telling me, or not if a fire comes, it's when. Like if you're in this business long enough, you're gonna have fires.

Rod Khleif:

I've had so many.

Brian Briscoe:

I've had so many, I I lose count. We had three last year that were claimable on insurance, you know. Right. A handful that we just like, okay, 15,000, you know, uh, you know, so there are a couple of that we've just fixed ourselves.

Rod Khleif:

Well, we we we have the tenants get insurance now. We have the tenants get insurance, and and we use that. Uh we just had a fire at the same building, same complex in Nashville, but it was just in one unit, thank God. But it's a hundred thousand dollar limit, and we're gonna use every bit of that hundred thousand. I've got to oh, by the way, if you got if you're listening and you ever have a big claim, always get a public adjuster to help you. They'll always make more money. They basically are in your camp when you're negotiating with the insurance company. They always find more than you think they that that's there. I had hurricane hit my compound here in Florida. I have six buildings, and I settled for just under a million dollars. Wow. Because I got a public adjuster. So I got new roofs, new paint, new pavers, new kitchen. Yeah, I I but then Milton and Elaine came and destroyed my dock, and I had to pay for that. That was 60 grand. But uh, yeah, my dock ended up looking like something out of a Dr. Seuss book. You gotta walk like this, and then you gotta walk like that. Yeah, it was funny, but it's it's been rebuilt now. But uh, but yeah, no, you know, listen, people are like, oh, I wouldn't move to Florida because there's hurricanes. Listen, if you get hurt in a hurricane, you're a dipshit because you got plenty of notice, you just leave, okay?

Brian Briscoe:

That's it.

Rod Khleif:

You know, when my kids were young, we'd go to Disney, you know, they loved hurricanes because we ended up in Disney. But uh, you know, not tornado, that's another story. Earthquake, that's another story, but hurricane, you're an idiot if you get hurt in a hurricane because you can leave.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you you see them coming days out. So exactly. Well, awesome.

Rod Khleif:

Well, listen, if I if you don't mind, if I I'd love to plug my podcast as well. Oh, yeah. Because I it's the largest really in the world now for real estate, commercial real estate. Uh, we're pushing almost 30 million downboats, which doesn't sound like a lot, but compared to like Jill Rogan or something like that. But but you know, I'm talking about other the reason I wanted to plug it is I'm talking about other asset classes as well. It's not just multifamily anymore. I've got, you know, talking about senior housing, we're talking about uh, you know, self-storage, industrial flex space, mobile home parks. And so there's a lot of value there. So if you have an interest in real estate, you can kind of get a taste for other things as well. And it's called lifetime cash flow through real estate investing. And uh, and if you go to that Rod's links, my podcast link is there as well. And if you're driving, text links to 72345, because uh there's a lot of free resources there, a ton of free books. There's a goal setting workshop. You know, people spend more time planning a Christmas party than they do designing their lives, doing your goals is designing your life, and it's there, it's free. I'm not gonna try to sell you anything. It's a guide you can download. So there's just a ton of great stuff that I think you you'll really enjoy it. I'm proud of it.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a it's a podcast. Honestly, when when I got into this uh this business, there were two podcasts that I I listened to religiously, and yours was one of them.

Rod Khleif:

So that's kind of you to say that, brother.

Brian Briscoe:

Back in I think 17, 2017, 18, that's when I started podcasting. Sounds better, right? Yeah, yeah.

Rod Khleif:

I used to I used to tell people early on, I'll never sell you anything because I just wanted to add value. That was my focus. Let me add value. I'll never sell you anything. And I never intended to. Now I'm a freaking liar because I sell everything, but I never, you know, you want to make God laugh, you tell them your plans, right? So yeah, but uh but anyway, yeah. Yeah, thanks.

Brian Briscoe:

I'm really proud of it, and that's why I wanted to plug it for a second. Awesome, awesome. Appreciate you. And a couple things just to just to close out here. Great discussion. One question I love asking everybody if you have to give advice, which you do very frequently to people who start, but if you had to give one piece of advice to somebody who's just starting out on a multifamily journey, what would that be?

Rod Khleif:

It's 47 freaking dollars and I don't sell anything. It's 16 hours of training. But listen, bottom line is educate yourself and don't get caught in analysis paralysis. You know, analytical people are very successful in our business because it's primarily empirical, it's numbers. So you need the analysis part, but you also need to build relationships. And the best partnerships I see are an analytical person with an outgoing. Person. Obviously, I'm the mouthpiece in my relationships, but you know, I've partnered with CPAs and whatnot. But you know, get out there and get educated and then just take action. Don't sit there and analyze it. Uh, and I guess I I made the long by intention. Don't analyze it and and uh and just just go do it. You know, design your life, get juice, because you gotta get hungry. You gotta build, you gotta create that burning desire. And the only way to do that is to get your goals in front of you and make them compelling and why the goals are a must. You spend an hour with me, you'll leave so motivated you'll be coming out of your skin. So that would be my advice. Start there, actually, because so many people are comfortable and so many people are scared and they have fear, they have limiting beliefs, and you've got to have the goals to push through that stuff because the the the you know the life of your dreams is just on the other side of some comfort.

Brian Briscoe:

Yeah, absolutely. Awesome, awesome. Well, this is where I usually ask where can people learn more about you? But I think you're gonna say rodslinks.com.

Rod Khleif:

Rodslink is it, yeah, that's it. That's it for sure. But yeah, and if you're driving, text links to 72345, and we'll send you that link. But uh there's a lot of free good stuff there. So I I've I've been selling a little more than I intended to, and I apologize, but uh I I get excited sometimes. I I am proud of what we've done. I like I said, my students are our our program eclipses everybody else combined.

Brian Briscoe:

So very well you have you have given a lot of value to a lot of people, and I do appreciate that. Thank you. Uh well hey Rod, appreciate you coming on the show today, and uh you know look forward to seeing a lot more from you in the in the future. Sounds good, buddy. Great to see you, my friend. Hey, I hope you got a lot from today's conversation. If you did, be sure to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. We're on all major podcast platforms and YouTube. If you're ready to go from learning to doing, head on over to thetribe of titans.com. That's our private community where aspiring apartment investors need the tool, support, and training to take action. Again, that's thetribofitans.com. Until next time, keep moving forward.

Head Shot

Brian Briscoe

Host